How To: Power FC and FC Datalogit Tuning

[many]

Originally Posted by zzt231 gr

Quit it...

[ESNBuckwild]

Originally Posted by ZaneMan

I guess you should read it a few more times then.

Wow! Wasnt the answer I was looking for. If I hadnt read the entire post I could understand what you were saying. But since I have read it multiple times, its a different situation. I was simply asking for help from anyone who is more familiar with the Apexi Power FC/FC edit software than myself. ZaneMan, if you are then thats great! Any help you can offer would be excellent. But your quote isnt very helpful. If you have nothing positive to say or add, then just dont speak. NO DISRESPECT but I dont like being blown off when I ask for help. Not here to start a pissing contest at all. If you can help then help. If not then dont.

[zzt231 gr]

A simple answer is that no one can help you easily from a distant place...If you can't understand even the basics,you won't be able to solve the tuning problems and "riddles" that will come to the surface on the way...You better pay a pro to have the job done-try it for yourself and you might blow the engine...Semi-knowledge is worst than ignorance!!

[2KGTS]

Originally Posted by ESNBuckwild

Wow! Wasnt the answer I was looking for. If I hadnt read the entire post I could understand what you were saying. But since I have read it multiple times, its a different situation. I was simply asking for help from anyone who is more familiar with the Apexi Power FC/FC edit software than myself. ZaneMan, if you are then thats great! Any help you can offer would be excellent. But your quote isnt very helpful. If you have nothing positive to say or add, then just dont speak. NO DISRESPECT but I dont like being blown off when I ask for help. Not here to start a pissing contest at all. If you can help then help. If not then dont.

I suggest you make a separate, top-level post with specific questions you have?

[ESNBuckwild]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

I suggest you make a separate, top-level post with specific questions you have?

Thanks I dont think I worded the question right, I apologize for that. I dont mean how do u tune from a beginners standpoint. My question is that when you are logging runs, i heard that the cells light up in blue..is that correct? And to zzt231 gr. I dont recall anyone saying that I didnt know the basics. U assumed that. But either way I should have worded my question better. And I apologize to all for that.

[ZaneMan]

Originally Posted by ESNBuckwild

Wow! Wasnt the answer I was looking for. If I hadnt read the entire post I could understand what you were saying. But since I have read it multiple times, its a different situation. I was simply asking for help from anyone who is more familiar with the Apexi Power FC/FC edit software than myself. ZaneMan, if you are then thats great! Any help you can offer would be excellent. But your quote isnt very helpful. If you have nothing positive to say or add, then just dont speak. NO DISRESPECT but I dont like being blown off when I ask for help. Not here to start a pissing contest at all. If you can help then help. If not then dont.

I'm just saying do your research. No one helped me learn how to tune. I read over Jesse's post a few times and I have to say I was more confused than when I started as well. However, Jesse does a very good job of explaining "how" to tune. I just kept reading it and after awhile I figured it out step by step. Go back and read more posts about tuning when you run into specific problems, or like 2KGTS said post about them. Find a base map, load it, log, fix, log, fix, log, fix, ect.

[Magusownz]

Well I think I've found something incorrect on tuning dealing with the ING Lag vs BatVoltage. After searching on the internet I've found out instead of just entering your new injector lag values for your larger injectors, you are supposed to subtract you new lag times from the stock values. New injector lag times - stock lag times = your conversion number.

You have to do this because pfc is programmed to know the car runs 310s stock.

I will be testing this all out tonight or early tomorrow and will let you guys know how it all goes. Hopefully it corrects the lag time and I won't go lean on throttle anymore.

[Shizuma]

^So the TPS fnc didn't help out? Is it doing it no matter what the % of tip in is or does it happen at non-specified TPS % values (or somewhere in between)?

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by Shizuma

^So the TPS fnc didn't help out? Is it doing it no matter what the % of tip in is or does it happen at non-specified TPS % values (or somewhere in between)?

I did what I tried in my post above and it worked. Not lean anymore in tip in. Just a bunch of basemap(airfuel) retuning I have to do now.

On another note I'm happy that I finally figured this out!

[kortik]

whats tip in?

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by kortik

whats tip in?

Its how much fuel is being added when increasing the throttle quickly. Best way I can explain it.

To prevent the car from going lean when quickly hitting the gas a feature like this is used. For us pfc guys its either the accelerate injector option or through the inj vs accel tps1 option.

[Shizuma]

Originally Posted by Magusownz

I did what I tried in my post above and it worked. Not lean anymore in tip in. Just a bunch of basemap(airfuel) retuning I have to do now.

On another note I'm happy that I finally figured this out!

Cool, what are the stock inj lag times btw? It's probably a preset but I don't have the thing sitting in front of me.

[zzt231 gr]

Originally Posted by Magusownz

Well I think I've found something incorrect on tuning dealing with the ING Lag vs BatVoltage. After searching on the internet I've found out instead of just entering your new injector lag values for your larger injectors, you are supposed to subtract you new lag times from the stock values. New injector lag times - stock lag times = your conversion number.

You have to do this because pfc is programmed to know the car runs 310s stock.

I will be testing this all out tonight or early tomorrow and will let you guys know how it all goes. Hopefully it corrects the lag time and I won't go lean on throttle anymore.

I think I did that,about one year ago when I installed my 440's.But I did the fine tuning by trying to have the same AFR as my last one at idle...

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by zzt231 gr

I think I did that,about one year ago when I installed my 440's.But I did the fine tuning by trying to have the same AFR as my last one at idle...

For the lotus 440ccs I didn't do any conversion and the car ran perfectly fine. Just redid the fueling. But I'm glad I found this out, will help others in the future and me lol. I still got a lot of tuning to do on these 650ccs.

[GLERINK]

Quick question do I have to retune on weather changes?

[zzt231 gr]

^^If the variation is not great and you don't see a problem-knock or very rich/lean mixtures-you should be ok.

[zzt231 gr]

One webinar that may help some of us is here.

http://motec.adobeconnect.com/p40634...&pbMode=normal

It talks about idle control with wild cams,ITBs etc.

[many]

Nice info....validates a couple of ideas I had. Now if only the Power FC could be modified to accept any other input on Idle timing other then 20....it has a mind of it's own!

[2KGTS]

As some of you now know, I've installed a PFC, have FC Edit Universal v2.129, and have used a map with extra fuel and timing retardation to establish a knock curve for my 2000 GT-S with eBay SRI, DD ported exhaust manifold, hfc, and Greddy Evo2 knock-off axle-back exhaust (which is leaking and will be replaced by a Magnaflow as soon as it arrives), with 212,000 miles. I've asked some stupid questions in order to get to this point and am grateful for the help I've received to-date!

I'd like to echo the fact this and related threads are AWESOME resources to the 7th-gen community. A lot of expertise, hard work, time, effort, and money have created a great reservoir of useful tuning info. I wouldn't have gone down this path, most likely, if it weren't here. I'm extremely grateful!

However, I'm not one that learns facts and concepts easily by the printed word. As a matter of fact, I outright suck at it. But I'm far, far from stupid. I've found it necessary to try to make notes and outlines in an attempt to organize the information I have picked up so far. And, as you can read above, I ain't very far.

I'd like to get some affirmation from those in the know, and ask a couple of questions.

First, this is the list of steps I've discerned - and mostly followed - to get to where I am:

1) Install WB02
2) Install PowerFC with Datalogit, serial-to-USB converter
3) Integrate the WB02 into the Datalogit
4) Install FC Edit Universal software on a compatible and USB-capable laptop
5) Install a version of Microsoft Excel in order to use community provided spreadsheet tools
6) Acquire preferred (safe) map
7) Read Jesse-IL's PFC Tuning thread posts numbers 1 and 2
8) Determine your preferred breakpoints
9) Compare your preferred breakpoints to those of your map and modify using the PROPER rescaling spreadsheet found in this forum, if necessary
10) Read post #3 in this thread
11) Create a copy of your map having retarded timing 4 degrees across the entire IGN map
12) Determine your vehicles unique knock curve using Jesse-IL's technique per referred forum post
13) Download Jesse-IL's PFC_Tune spreadsheet

Please let me know if you have any input on the above 13 steps. (Damn, I coulda made this a 12-step program!)

Having arrived at this point I have a few questions.

Q1) Since the map I'm using has all entries on the Inj tab = 1.000, I can't very well use the Inj tab as a target AFR map without a lot of work I'm not willing to chase right now. Therefore, on the PFC_Tune spreadsheet INJ-Target AFR tab, I believe I set the entire top table to 14.7 so all the charts will calculate properly on the other tabs on the sheet. Correct?

Q2) I have a number of logs with idle, idle with A/C, interstate cruising, and even just some driving around. Can I simply put them all into the Log tab being careful not to overlap cells and, of course, tossing cells with too few incidents (num)?

Q3) Does it make sense to start increasing timing back towards the original map and check for knock first or should I get fueling in better shape first?

Thanks!

[2KGTS]

I believe I'm mistaken in Q1. In order for the corrections to be correct I DO need a proper AFR table on the INJ-Target AFR tab. Correct?

... Hello? Is this thing on?

[many]

Fuel should be your main goal for now ....and that takes a lot of street tuning.
Disregard the injection map all together...in theory it should work....but it doesn't... it only does an Ok job for 14.7 AFR as it's getting it's data from the OEM oxygen sensor(which is a narrow band) thus only capable of 14.7 true reading.
So leave everything at 1.
Work only with the Base map.
First you need to fix all your break points and your load points....there's no reason to have 20 000 value if your barely hit 17 000.====> this will give more resolution.
More resolution= better tune.
When street tuning you should always turn off the 02 sensor....it will skew your results as it's always trying to be stoich at light cruise.
Get the map in an overall good state before starting to bring in timing.
AFR: 13.0- 13.4 before lift and 12.4-12.8 after.
Play with different gears as it involves a different load point for the same speed....this is almost always overlooked.

[2KGTS]

Thanks very much for the time and input, many. You make a lot of sense.

I've decided:

Q1 - use the chart as is, changing the supplied AFRs if I wish.
Q2 - yes: pile them on if there are enough Num incidents to be valid
Q3 - fueling first

So, new questions.

I have access, currently, to three maps for the 2zz. Each maps Ign tabs and Vvt tabs vary WILDLY. I don't mean just a little. BIG differences. I can't imagine that makes much damn sense. I've started a spreadsheet of my own to use the two maps I trust most and create an "average" starting Ign and Vvt sheet taking into account different breakpoints and lift points.

I know each engine's unique, but the huge variation in Ign and Vvt values at the same breakpoints from map to map really dont' make sense - do they? Any input/feedback here?

[many]

I forgot .....You should put 20 degrees of timing across the board to start.
If I where you I would toss all those maps and start from scratch.
There's a very few members on here that I would trust, mostly the ones that have done numerous dyno sessions and know what works and what not. Street tuning is tricky as you can add a bunch of timing and not knock but you wont be making more power. A lot make this assumption ...if adding a bit timing makes Power then a lot more is awesome....wrong! If your running a lot of timing and not knocking you should always look at you plugs.....if there's a shinny aluminum"dust" on them ...then its way over advanced.
VVT is crucial for NA HP and can only be optimized on the dyno....street tuning will get you close but the dyno will smooth it out.
What cams are you running?

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by many

I forgot .....You should put 20 degrees of timing across the board to start.
If I where you I would toss all those maps and start from scratch.
There's a very few members on here that I would trust, mostly the ones that have done numerous dyno sessions and know what works and what not. Street tuning is tricky as you can add a bunch of timing and not knock but you wont be making more power. A lot make this assumption ...if adding a bit timing makes Power then a lot more is awesome....wrong! If your running a lot of timing and not knocking you should always look at you plugs.....if there's a shinny aluminum"dust" on them ...then its way over advanced.
VVT is crucial for NA HP and can only be optimized on the dyno....street tuning will get you close but the dyno will smooth it out.
What cams are you running?

Hes running stock cams. I sent him one of my maps so it should be a decent start. At least vvt and timing wise.

[2KGTS]

For clarity, I'm using one of Jesse's maps at the moment. No offense, Magus - and I plan on using your map for reference when I get more to timing, etc. Anyway, to my question.

I'm using PFC_Tune.xls and logs to try to nail down fuel at first. It uses an AFR map. The sample AFR map and input I've received/read here are a bit at odds. What's in the spreadsheet appears below (hope it shows up adequately).

900 1150 1600 2050 2500 2950 3400 3850 4300 4750 5200 5525 5575 5800 6250 6700 7150 7600 8050 8500
1500 14.3 14.3 14.3 14.5 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
1700 14.3 14.3 14.3 14.5 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
2000 14.3 14.3 14.3 14.5 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
2700 14.2 14.2 14.2 14.2 14.2 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
3400 13.7 13.7 13.7 13.7 13.7 14.3 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
4200 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.3 13.9 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
5000 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1
5800 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8
6600 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5
7500 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.4 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2
8400 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
9100 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
9700 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
10300 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
10900 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
11500 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
12100 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
12700 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
13300 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
13900 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0

From what I've heard, 13.0 is rich for the high load, high rpm and 13.5 is more appropriate. I'm happy to take any feedback on this AFR table.

Thanks!

[2KGTS]

Here's a screen capture of the Excel sheet of the AFR table:



I take it nobody uses the AFR table method and PFC_Tune spreadsheet or at least, has no input on this example, then?

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

For clarity, I'm using one of Jesse's maps at the moment. No offense, Magus - and I plan on using your map for reference when I get more to timing, etc. Anyway, to my question.

I'm using PFC_Tune.xls and logs to try to nail down fuel at first. It uses an AFR map. The sample AFR map and input I've received/read here are a bit at odds. What's in the spreadsheet appears below (hope it shows up adequately).

900 1150 1600 2050 2500 2950 3400 3850 4300 4750 5200 5525 5575 5800 6250 6700 7150 7600 8050 8500
1500 14.3 14.3 14.3 14.5 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
1700 14.3 14.3 14.3 14.5 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
2000 14.3 14.3 14.3 14.5 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
2700 14.2 14.2 14.2 14.2 14.2 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
3400 13.7 13.7 13.7 13.7 13.7 14.3 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
4200 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.3 13.9 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7 14.7
5000 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1
5800 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 14.1 14.1 14.1 14.1 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8 13.8
6600 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5
7500 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.4 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2 13.2
8400 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
9100 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
9700 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
10300 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
10900 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
11500 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
12100 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
12700 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
13300 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0
13900 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.1 13.3 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.5 13.3 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0 13.0

From what I've heard, 13.0 is rich for the high load, high rpm and 13.5 is more appropriate. I'm happy to take any feedback on this AFR table.

Thanks!

A 13.0afr at full throttle in lift is good, and actually its getting to the closer end of being lean. But works well with the correct timing. And a 13.5 before lift.

Only other thing I see is that this afr table gets rich to quickly in partial throttle.

[2KGTS]

Thanks, Magus. Do folks use the PFC_Tune spreadsheet and the AFR table as Jesse described, with the INJ map reflecting the AFR table?

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

Thanks, Magus. Do folks use the PFC_Tune spreadsheet and the AFR table as Jesse described, with the INJ map reflecting the AFR table?

Nope. Most people leave the inj map at 1.000. And do all the fuel tuning in the base fuel map.

[zzt231 gr]

2KGTS,do yourself a favour and read the whole thread.You will come to many helpful conclusions!

[2KGTS]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I should pay to have this done along with the DD IM, Q45, injectors, and 3" intake ... or just sell it all.

I'll read it all AGAIN. But if going through all the original posts Jesse made and most of the others, finding a mid-tuned stock NA map of his, and assuming the posts about PFC-Tune, etc. aren't dated doesn't work then this **** really needs to be updated for the ADD of us, dammit.

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I should pay to have this done along with the DD IM, Q45, injectors, and 3" intake ... or just sell it all.

I'll read it all AGAIN. But if going through all the original posts Jesse made and most of the others, finding a mid-tuned stock NA map of his, and assuming the posts about PFC-Tune, etc. aren't dated doesn't work then this **** really needs to be updated for the ADD of us, dammit.

With the map I sent you its a perfect starting point at least vvt and timing wise.
Then just get the fueling ok and you are good to go.

Or install all your parts and bring it to a known 2zz tuner.

[2KGTS]

The AFR map made beautiful sense, making things easier. With your map I had no way to relate fueling like I could with one set up for the AFR map and Jesse's spreadsheet. Throw in a weird feel at lift transition (due to the fueling change, perhaps?) and the knock, I thought starting with the one I found of Jesse's that used the AFR map would work well. The problem with that one is the way it needs to be rescaled, VVT revamped, etc.

It really doesn't matter where I start, I guess. I just sold myself on the idea that the INJ map with the AFR reference in the spreadsheet made getting fueling right MUCH easier. *Shrug* I won't get back to this 'til next week, I bet and will make up my mind by then.

I do greatly appreciate the help. I just felt more like I was flying blind and having to keep the AFR table referenced in my head when tuning fueling with any other map.

[Magusownz]

The airfuel target map you posted is decent, if you run those air fuel you car will be fine.

But at full throttle I'd start with a richer air fuel, or keep the timing low while you are getting the air fuel on point. Say 23degrees at full throttle while you are tuning, then add more timing later after the airfuel is all situated.

[2KGTS]

Check. Thanks. Will report back.

[2KGTS]

I thought I'd put some time into idle tuning and found something interesting I'd not read about. That doesn't mean it wasn't said, just that I don't remember seeing it.

With the O2 Feedback off, no matter how much fuel I take away at idle, AFR won't rise about 12.9-13. As soon as I turn on O2 Feedback it works towards 14.7. Is this normal behavior?

I've had occasional starting issues and I believe that's because I'm rich at those low rpm/load cells. Idle would run around 12-12.5. I've cut back fuel there until it just gets to 12.9-13 since I don't have any AFR visibility above 13 at idle. We'll see if that makes starts 100%.

So, basically, is this standard idle behavior?

Thanks.

[zzt231 gr]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

With the O2 Feedback off, no matter how much fuel I take away at idle, AFR won't rise about 12.9-13. As soon as I turn on O2 Feedback it works towards 14.7. Is this normal behavior?

When O2 feedback is on,yes.Watch out when modifying fuel from the INJ map because it is tricky.To tune fuel upon idle,make a log from fully cold till fans turn on and then off,with O2 off and fuel correction/temp all to 1.000.

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

I've had occasional starting issues and I believe that's because I'm rich at those low rpm/load cells. Idle would run around 12-12.5. I've cut back fuel there until it just gets to 12.9-13 since I don't have any AFR visibility above 13 at idle. We'll see if that makes starts 100%.

Maybe this and maybe Crancking fuel settings.

[2KGTS]

It just seems odd that it won't go above 13.0 no matter what I do. I'll run the full idle test. I didn't know all fuel correction for temp was to be set to 1.000 for that test, though?!

[Magusownz]

That's definitely odd behavior. With o2 feedback off you should be able to get the air fuel wherever you want it.

I'd make your inj map 1.000 like mentioned and tune from there with just the base fuel map. Makes things easier on yourself.

[many]

Originally Posted by Magusownz

I'd make your inj map 1.000 like mentioned and tune from there with just the base fuel map. Makes things easier on yourself.

This!
That's what we've been telling him from the start!
The logic of tuning with the INJ map is flawed as the Power FC is trying to adjust with a narrow band O2 sensor. The only good it can do is stoic=14.7.

[2KGTS]

Originally Posted by Magusownz

That's definitely odd behavior. With o2 feedback off you should be able to get the air fuel wherever you want it.

I'd make your inj map 1.000 like mentioned and tune from there with just the base fuel map. Makes things easier on yourself.

INJ map is all 1.000. O2 Feedback off and even with Idle-IG Cntrl off along with it. Changes to INJ map or Base map have no impact. Ideas?

I can do the entire 20 minute warmup with temp corrections set to 1.000. But why can't I affect the AFR?????????

[2KGTS]

Originally Posted by zzt231 gr

To tune fuel upon idle,make a log from fully cold till fans turn on and then off,with O2 off and fuel correction/temp all to 1.000.

That means the Water Temp Correction and INJ vs AirTemp entries all are to be set to 1.000, correct?

But leave the IGN vs WaterT, IGN vs AirT, and IGN vs WaterT Cool?

[zzt231 gr]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

That means the Water Temp Correction and INJ vs AirTemp entries all are to be set to 1.000, correct?

Yes.

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

But leave the IGN vs WaterT, IGN vs AirT, and IGN vs WaterT Cool?

Yes,because this is the way your car will always function

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

INJ map is all 1.000. O2 Feedback off and even with Idle-IG Cntrl off along with it. Changes to INJ map or Base map have no impact. Ideas?

I can do the entire 20 minute warmup with temp corrections set to 1.000. But why can't I affect the AFR?????????

Doing the idle learn process really doesn't matter like I've said before. No clue why its not allowing your to take away or add more fuel. If you'd like to send me your map you know my email.

[zzt231 gr]

I forgot to mention the easier way I use to learn the idle.It is tested and needs almost the half time than the usual 30 min.

http://www.apexi-usa.com/manuals/ele...cs/414m907.pdf

[2KGTS]

I've not tuned idle yet, but doing some research found some consistency in how idle and fuel cut issues are resolved. Basically, my Base map was way too rich. Also, it seems recommended/common to increase timing in the first 5x5 cells as well.

With those changes, idle hits 14.7 easily when driving around and at a stop, and I've been able to drop the fuel cut settings for A/C and A/E both to more like default levels. She doesn't stink as badly when doing the idle learning, either.

Oh, and I'd swear the leaner idle fueling and lower F/C values have made shifting around town easier as well.

[2KGTS]

Originally Posted by zzt231 gr

I forgot to mention the easier way I use to learn the idle.It is tested and needs almost the half time than the usual 30 min.

http://www.apexi-usa.com/manuals/ele...cs/414m907.pdf

That file's corrupt - I've tried it 3 times with 2 different browsers. Sorry...

[Magusownz]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

I've not tuned idle yet, but doing some research found some consistency in how idle and fuel cut issues are resolved. Basically, my Base map was way too rich. Also, it seems recommended/common to increase timing in the first 5x5 cells as well.

With those changes, idle hits 14.7 easily when driving around and at a stop, and I've been able to drop the fuel cut settings for A/C and A/E both to more like default levels. She doesn't stink as badly when doing the idle learning, either.

Oh, and I'd swear the leaner idle fueling and lower F/C values have made shifting around town easier as well.

Nice work. Seems like you getting used to tuning it some, its always better than a basemap .

[2KGTS]

Going after this on my own would have failed miserably. I've searched high and low over a number of sites just to try to resolve this issue alone.

The shocking thing is the wild variations from map to map to map. But I'm saying I cut a HUGE amount out of the fuel in the first 5x5.

Anyway, thanks everyone for all of your help and patience. It's greatly appreciated!

[zzt231 gr]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

That file's corrupt - I've tried it 3 times with 2 different browsers. Sorry...
__________________

I just opened it from the link I gave you above...

And I read your posts on the FCdatalogit group.Nice.